Over the course of the last couple months, God has really been challenging me on the issue of prayer. First via Gary Haugen's Just Courage and then through my own time studying how Jesus existed. Having said all that, I'd love to hear your thoughts/interactions on any of the following questions. (This will be the subject of this next weekend's public gathering.)
• When it comes to prayer, is it “the thought that counts”?
• How often do we confuse “I hope” with “I pray”?
• How often do I really direct my prayers toward God vs. in His general vicinity?
• How much of Jesus’ impact is explainable via prayer?
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I think what I'm struggling with is the disconnect between the incredible/integral role prayer played in Jesus' life in contrast to the minimal role it plays in mine. I'm trying not to come at this from a shaming angle, but the disconnect is incredibly convicting for me.
Jesus was 100% human & 100% divine and he still spent an incredible amount of time praying... Was it a show? Was it really needed? Was he simply modeling things to us? (I'd love someone's thoughts on all this.) I'm 100% human and incredibly broken, yet I spend a minimal amount of time praying. Add to that the fact that most of what I chalk up to prayer is probably more undirected hope than it is actual interaction with the Creator, and I've got myself a mess.
I suppose the question is, now what?
DUDE!
You have to listen to the Mars Hill message by Ed & Kent Dobson from 8/10/08. I posted it here because it's not on their web site anymore.
www.mosaicbillings.net/misc/081008.mp3
It's incredible. It talks about prayer and how it's pretty obvious that the disciples had an issue with prayer because they had to ask Jesus to teach them how to pray.
Towards the end of the message Kent talks about how our consumerist economy and society have deadened us to what and how we should perceive our Father. He connects our "I want it now" society to the lack of immediate results we never get from prayer and basically says it's skewed our perception and understanding of prayer.
It's an amazing message, and I wish I could do it justice by summarizing it here. I can't though, so download it and carve out 40 minutes to listen to it. It completely ties your struggle with consumerism and prayer together in a fascinating way.
If the address doesn't work for the MP3 file, I've zipped it for your downloading convenience.
www.mosaicbillings.net/misc/081008.zip
Interesting, I'll do my best to get 40 minutes carved out.
How has it changed the way you pray?
What is prayer? Is there a way you're supposed to do it? As Joe pointed out, the disciples asked Jesus the very same question. Unfortunately, his answer doesn't work for me. I'm more of a Ps. 46:10 kind of person: "Be still & know that I am God."
And it's not a it's-the-thought-that-counts kind of thing, either. For me, it's a walk on a beautiful spring day...seeing & feeling & participating in God's world. It's holding a cup of coffee in both of my hands, hearing the chaotic chatter of the coffee house patrons & thanking God for these people, none of whom I know. It's taking Bandit out for his midnight pee & seeing the canopy of stars glimmer far above the cathedral. I am quiet in my soul at these times...and I commune with God.
Is it prayer? I don't really know...
If I do "pray," that is, use words to communicate with God, I still am unable to do it in the way that a lot of people seem to do it...
In fact, I don't even like to use the work "pray"...it kind of gives me the weebie jeebies.
Instead, I chat with God. And I do it just like I were talking to someone sitting across the table from me. And if God is who he says he is, then I have to believe that he probably is, in fact, sitting across the table from me.
Sometimes I write prayers/letters/whatever to God. That's been a pretty cool outlet for me...and God. :)
Hi Steph, as always, your thoughts are deep. Your thoughts on prayer are very consistent with where I've spent the last six or seven years, and I still think they're central to what prayer is (assuming by prayer we're talking about communicating with God).
Here is my new struggle, "Does God want to hear me ask? Psalm 54 implies He does. Additionally, if we're looking to Jesus as a model (guide, teacher, rabbi, etc.) then shouldn't the amount of time He spent praying challenge us?
One more thought that I'd love to hear your feedback on, what if how we pray/what we pray says more about what we believe about God than anything?
I think it depends what you're asking. I could write pages on how dumb I think it is that people ask God to "bless this food to our bodies." The human body has evolved to extract nutrients from food in the most efficient way possible & even if there is a problem, say e. coli, the medical system in this country is well equipped to handle the situation...so it seems to me that most people just say those words--they really have no meaning & the folks praying those words aren't really expecting God to step in and do something miraculous.
If we're going to use up God's time by making a request, let's ask something that really requires his help! Yes, God wants to hear us ask...but he also wants us to be ballsy in what we ask for!
I think my very favorite "prayer" that I "prayed" was when I yelled out to God, "God, if you fucking gave a shit, then someone would call me!!!" In my mind, at that moment, it was non-negotiable that God respond. And he did...because a friend I had not talked to in a long time called & asked if I wanted to meet for dinner.
If God is as big as we believe him to be, then he's probably bored to tears with all the requests to "bless this food"...he would love nothing more than for people to dream big dreams, have huge needs for God's presence...and then ask for & fully expect God to show up in that place.
Well done on that comment Steph. I love it.
I'll dually note the "bless this food" bash. I always include that in my prayers and I always feel like a tool when I do because it's so cliche'. I probably do it because I heard it said at every meal when I was growing up, and it's just a hard habit to break.
While I agree with your comment that if God's as big as we believe him to be and that we should be doing big things and relying on Him to carry us through that. My question is: why not the little things?
If you hesitate to ask a friend if they could take care of your dog for a few days because you'll be out of town, then how can you rely on that friend to baby sit your kid for a few days? If you are a control freak and don't want to give up any small tasks or responsibility to someone because you can't control the outcome, then how are you supposed to rely on that person when you get hospitalized and really need them to take it all on?
My point is, if we can't deny our selfish desire to have control over every aspect of our lives (even in the smallest things), then how can we even begin to ask God for big things? How do we mentally and spiritually say "God, I have everything under control except this one really really big thing. I need you to do that."
It seems to me that maybe we struggle with prayer and relying on God for bigger things because we don't rely on Him for the small things. And, maybe we don't rely of God for the small things because we don't have to. The small things are at our finger tips whenever we need them. After all, we live in America and it's the 21st century. I've never gone a day without food or water or a shoulder to cry on.
Asking God to have someone call you may have been a big thing in the moment (sorry if I'm downplaying any emotion here), but I bet there are things in your life that eclipse a phone call. ( I know there are in mine.) That phone call could have been the first small step to trusting God in something big.
Way to go.
Are we trusting God in the little things now so that we have the ability to trust God in the big things when they come?
Prayer for me: Communicating with God and listening. Thanking, Asking, and Giving.
Hope or Believe. "But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind" What I pray I hope to come true, but God knows what is best for me.
I am not sure how to direct my prayers in God's general vicinity?
Joe:
Actually...the phone call was huge, because I really was wrestling with whether God even existed & if so, where he fit into things. The way that the whole phone call thing worked started a whole new internal dialog for me.
I'll try not to get to personal in my postings, but I would caution you about not belittling other's personal experiences.
Mikey:
Your comment on belief & hope points to the interesting tension between faith & trust.
In some sense these words are the same; in fact I've heard faith defined as "trusting that God has your best interest at heart."
However, the use of "faith" seems a little edgier--the "shield of faith", faith the size of a grain of mustard can move mountains, etc.--while "trust" implies a softness, a malleability, to God's will.
Thoughts?
Hi Steph. Regarding blessing food to our bodies, the Jewish stuff has always helped me with that because the way they think about it is, "thanks for the food; thanks for letting me have some."
Hey Steph, what would you say in response to Joe's question, "Why not the little things?" real curious about that one...and pondering it myself.
Yo Steph:
I would say trusting God is similar to trusting people. Trust is built through experience and knowing that person. And having faith, I believe is based on that trust. Hutspa.
Good question--why not the little stuff?
Honestly, it just seems silly to me to drag God into something that I feel he had very little to do with.
You could say, well, if you lived in sub-Saharan Africa, then food might would likely be a big deal.
I agree.
So a more meaningful prayer for me would be to thank God that I live in a country where food in plentiful.
Now the big problem with my previous comment & my general stance of keeping God "out there" is that God seems to not be such a fan of all that.
There are so many "little" thing that have happened over the past year or so, each of which could be totally attributable to random events.
But...they all go together, they all add up...and it's just so weird that these things keep happening. Is it possible that God is challenging my view of him?
Mikey:
Trusting people is dangerous--they're careless, messy and sometimes intentionally hurtful.
Is trusting God similarly risky? I know God asks us to do big things, and the direction that we're asked to go may be hard...but is trusting God dangerous in the same way as trusting people?
(I'm kind of taking the devil's advocate position on this, because I myself just reach a point where I actually trusted God...and that trust was modeled by my trust in a human...)
I don't think it is dangerous to trust God he has what is best for us in mind. He loves us, He is Good, He died for us. He doesn't hurt us.
That was bold Mikey, true, but bold none the less. (Why do I have this sense that you better hunker down and prepare yourself for an onslaught? smiling).
Mikey...incoming onslaught:
What evidence do you have to support your argument that God has our best interest at heart?
I always wonder if God would have allowed Lot & his family to die with the rest of Sodom & Gomorrah if Abraham had not pleaded for Lot's behalf...
Does God know what's best? Or does he get caught up in jealous rage & sometimes overlook the best for those who are trying to follow him?
What compelling argument do you have that God wants what's best for me...you...or anyone else?
Psalms 32:8
Hi Steph.
I'm going to argue that the narrative found in Scripture tells of a God committed to His peoples' best. Isn't it a story about a God committed to putting creation back together?
Mikey, you're using somewhat circular logic: my question is, does God really have my best interest at heart? (Thereby implying that I may doubt that he does, i.e., I don't trust him on that issue.)
Your argument back is God's own words...but you can't do that! If I don't trust that God wants what's best for me, then I am doubting that very statement...
Steph, what about my thoughts? If He doesn't, why doesn't the story lurch to a stop after Genesis 3?
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